Thank you for this post!

Adam..."Parents" do have options....they have the option to organize their voices politically and to work with their local school boards to effect change and to ensure that the local district is running well...

You are advocating a parallel public education system...parallel to local boards, etc...effectively a competitive set...except this competitive set is designed by a group of elites who decide to opt-out of the social contract called public education....but still want everyone in the community to pay for their pet project...

Is this a democracy or not?...

Parents also have choices....to pay for private school, to participate in after-school programs, to engage on weekend education, etc...

If you take your proposition to its absurd extent....why can't each parent in town custom-tailor their own school for their own child....the answer of course is obvious...as citizens....we have to balance fiscal realities with the need to educate our kids...and to maximize the utility for all....not just a group of individuals who selfishly think they know better than the rest of us...

Matt,
If you are hosting a BBQ and a couple of guests are vegans, the choices offered might not be right for them. That you like “to organize politically and work with … local school boards” does not mean the every unhappy parent does. Good charters are a choice for some parents who are sufficiently unhappy with the existing system, and willing to become part of a small effective educational operation. And it is now legal. It is strange to read that you are calling this “selfish” and blame them for “thinking that they know better than the rest.”

@ Lindasy -(1) Even good public schools need improvement. Taxes are high and test scores are not great in all areas. Having studied Educational Measurement and Testing at Teachers College - Columbia Univ I assure you educational outcomes can be measured. (2) A board of Education that is elected with about 15% of eligible voters turning out in my mind is not enough controls for the public at large. (3) I graduated CHS in 1984 with 13 year of being taught by South Orange Maplewood Public Schools and I have kids in the W. Orange public schools. I like the public schools and know they do some good things but to say they don't need improvement in certain educational and fiscal areas is in my mind a some what untenable position to take If they remain a government monopoly with no competition they will remain good schools and will not be forced into great school. Also we will not have our tax dollars going to education used optimally.

I just don't buy this competition will make our schools better argument. In a world with unlimited funds, maybe, but that is not our reality. Our reality is limited funds which we must use in a way that benefits the majority of our students. Taking money off the top for an untested school, with a boutique premise and no accountability to the taxpayer is hardly beneficial to the majority of students.

The public CAN vote for BOE and the budget (depending on where you live), the fact that many choose not to is irrelevant to the issue of local control. Charter school trustees are not elected nor are they accountable to local BOEs. The public has no control over them at all.

I thought it was accupuncture.

Amen.

BINGO. This entire thing is a scheme to get private schools, which are supposed to cost the attendee money, paid for with our tax dollars.

What is the alternative? Have a huge inflexible bureaucratic apparatus that dictates every family what, when, and how their child will be taught, funded by every citizen, regardless of whether they agree with the System, or even send their kids into It? Is THIS better? We have THIS already, and some people are trying to change it. God bless them!

@Alex, I don't find my local school system, "huge and inflexible". I understand that you are unhappy with your school district and there are things I do not like about mine, but I can vote, go to BOE meetings and complain, run for the BOE, all these things to change what I don't like. None of these options will be available to me regarding a charter school.

I'm not opposed to charter schools in principle. I am opposed to a "huge, inflexible bureaucracy" in Trenton deciding this issue. I am in favor of local control. If the public wants a charter school, let them vote on it!

Talking about a lack of any educational background, Jutta Gassner-Snyder -- the lead founder listed on Hua Mei's second application to the DOE -- lists her credentials as the following:

1. Jutta Gassner-Synder (Lead Founder)
Doctoral Student in Oriental Medicine, Liberty University, CA
Diplomat of Oriental Medicine
Masters of Oriental Medicine from the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine
BA in Environmental Business and Economics and Pre-Med
Member of the National Certification Committee for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

'Upper grades'? At Pleasantdale in WO my kids take Spanish since Kindergarten.

Actually, I sense a fear that it will drain the public schools of needed funds, impacting the many to favor the few who turn their noses up at the "travesty" that is public school education. And if these people think that public education is a "travesty," just what will it be after all the boutique charter schools get approved?

No. How about set it up as a private school, and the people who want to send their kids there can spend $12,000 per year per child out of their own pocketbooks, just like the people who now send their kids to the other private schools in and around town. Pay for your own private school.

@ Alberto Fernandez: In year one (projecting 18 students drawn from our community) the direct costs upon the West Orange school system (for tuition and transportation) are estimated to be +/- $600,000 without a penny of savings to offset what will essentially be another unfunded mandate. $600,000 would go a long way toward putting a new roof on one of our aging school or replace an atro-turf playing field that is reaching the end of its useful life. There is very little discretionary spending by our local school board as something in excess of 80% of its budget is mandated. Whatever the possible mertit of this charter school (and they are questionable) we simply do not need it and can't afford it.

The fuss is about a lot of things. The most important of which is that local communities currently have NO say in what charter schools can open in their towns and drain millions of dollars from local school budgets without any corresponding savings. If you support LOCAL control of the charter school approval process to sign this petition (EVEN IF YOU HAVE ALREADY SIGNED SPECIFIC PETITIONS AGAINST HUA MEI)

http://www.change.org/petitions/new-jersey-communities-want-local-control-over-new-charter-schools-2

As a parent of a kindergartener in a public education system, which I do find a travesty, no quotation marks, (but can’t afford anything else right now), I’d love to see that travesty system drained of funds in favor of flexible “niche” schools where parents have a say in their children’ education. It seems like many commenter’s assume that one only has a say if one can pay private school tuition. How about downsizing the monster of public education in favor of smaller more flexible schools, just as those parents are trying to do?

@Alex, the answer is that we have a limited supply of public funds and every time you fracture those funds into smaller pieces (more niche schools), we pay for the same thing over and over again. The marginal cost of educating one child more or one child less is not the "average cost per student". Because of the economic realities, the charter school must bring something more to the table than an "educational option" - it must be part of the solution to a significant problem in a public school district. Moreover, because there are economic realities that must be dealt with, the decision to open a charter school should be up to the taxpayers that must pay the bills, not a bureaucrat in Trenton.

To M.Moore
As a society, we think that throwing money at public ed will make it better, which is not the case.
I have seen both private and public schools in action. Until this year, my kid attended a private elementary school. It was housed in an old building, and was quite shabby. Every other morning the principal helped with the car pool, half the teachers and the school psychologist were there too. The door of principal’s office was always open, and a parent was welcome to come in to talk without an appointment, as I did. We loved it.
Due to recession, I had to take my kid out. The public school is new and shiny. Every class has super-expensive boards. But good luck dropping in on your kid’s class ot talking principal!. The teachers are paid better; for sure they have more security and better medical and pension plans. One problem, and it matters…….we can’t wait to get out of that Borg system!
Throwing more money into the Borg is not going to improve it. Flexible small schools, such as charters, are a way to go, in my view. I’d love to join a small dynamic charter. We actually applied to a few, but did not get in, sadly.

I'm not talking about throwing money into the Borg. I'm talking about my ability as a taxpayer to decide where my funds are spent. I'm talking about having local control over decisions that affect my family. To me, this issue is about a bureaucrat in Trenton deciding for me how my tax dollars are spent. If charter schools are so wonderful, then we should be able to vote on them!

I suspect the few supporters of this school WOULD support a baseball immersion or violin immersion school, though I strongly suspect many supporters' TRUE goal is to turn around in a couple years and say "hey, if taxpayers are willing to pay for my kid to go to this free private school, why won't they pay for my kid to go to Catholic/Hebrew religious school?"

Lisa, how fluent are your children in Spanish? In my experience, those weekly school classes (public or private) are not so good, and almost never allow one to be fluent. The opening for learning a language without a serious accent in some time before adolescence. If your only language is English, you may think that some Spanish is pretty adequate. If you have at least two languages behind your belt, you know the pros of early immersion.

Well, Alex, you're free to find a private Spanish immersion school for your kids, and pay for it out of pocket. Why should I have to pay for that?

Ken, You are neither paying for my kid’s schooling, nor would you ever. I only have one, and I pay plenty into the System to fund my kid’s schooling. Don’t worry, I won’t go to you with my hand stretched out.
Funny, how while paying the same amount into the System , you assume that you have THE say on what it should fund, and have the arrogance to tell me where to go. Are you a System administrator, by any chance? Reveal yourself!
If you are a private citizen, surprise, my opinion is as good as yours. And I happen to think that interested citizens should be able to direct their taxes to schools they like and believe in. People who take it on themselves to create great charters are making a real contribution to the society and education.
You don’t agree with that, fine, just don’t tell me what to do. I don’t need you advise, so don’t posture like you are subsidizing me.

@Aaron -- well, actually, your opinion isn't as good as mine, because it's wrong. But have a nice day, and good luck getting the taxpayers to pay for your private school; it's a brilliant scam.

Why do people without any children subsidize schools? Why do people without cars subsidize roads? Why isn't every service pay as you go? Lets face it all of society benefits from certain common good elements. Our society benefits from an educated populace. We, as a society, have agreed to provide a thorough and efficient education to every child living in NJ. "Thorough and efficient" is the definition not "the sky's the limit" education. If you want more for your child than the public pays for you are of course free to buy whatever extras you desire with your own funds. That's the difference.

Could not agree more with this statement!

I didn't call the police or fire dept last year, so perhaps I should get a tax refund for that?

My son drives himself to school everyday and for many years I drove my kids to elementary school becuase we lived just inside of the 2 mi. limit for bussing. Given the tremendous hills in my neighborhood, it would have been impossible for them to walk to school everyday.

No-one ever game me any money for not using the transportation system. I truly could have appreciated the $2400. If I sent my kids to the local Catholic School which is 1/4 mi from my house, I would have gotten the $2400. Go figure!

This is not a stipend! A kid in in a public school is entitled to have a portion of parents' taxes pay for transportation. Why would a kid in a private school not be entitled to have part of their parent's taxes pay for transportation? For the record, my kid is in a public elementary school, I do not like it, and we’d love to leave it as soon as we can.

Sandy, your argument just doesn't hold up. Why are the taxpayers subsidizing advanced placement classes? Why aren't these classes pay as you go if the parents of an AP student want there child to get something special? Where is the law that mandates we have to pay for football programs, band, chorus, etc.

Sandy, I my view, downsizing public schools is not going to do it (see my post to M More above). Small flexible charter or public schools OUTSIDE of the School System is a way to go. And I don’t think that educational background of the founders matters that much. BTW, private schools do not ask for teaching certifications: all that matters is a degree and an ability to teach, and they do a pretty good job.
As to the “hint” on supplementing, we’ve already become a part-time teachers since our kid got enrolled in a public system. The kid is highly gifted, according to the System’s testing: so, parents to the risqué! Or watch him averaged out -- just what the System is designed to do -- whatever one likes best.
BTW just this Saturday I attended a Mandarin immersion private school in another part of NJ. They have a Charter school in the works too, and I am keeping my eye on it closely. I have seen a number of excellent charter schools out, unfortunately, we did not get in.

@Alex -- Your kindergartner tested as highly gifted? Interesting. Which district is this in?

Ken,
My kid was tested on my request before enrolling. I have a benefit of owning property in two school districts, so we went with the one that tested. Results: 98% in math, and yes, the kid is in the gifted program (the only Kindergartner in school).

Lindsay,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have never complained about the transportation issue as I understood the rationale.

The bottom line is that we should be able to vote on this issue and not have it fall victim to politicians in Trenton who may or may not have an agenda that does not bode well for our districts.

The voters should decide.

This is pretty straightforward. EVERY resident pays public school tax. We start paying it as soon as we start working: either directly though property taxes, or indirectly through rent, which pays landlord’s property taxes. Part of the tax funds transportation.
Parents whose kids are in private schools pay public school taxes just the same as parents of public school system students (as do childless people). So, why wouldn’t they be entitled to transportation on their buck? They already subsidize public school students with involuntary public school tax, while paying private tuition. Their transportation is not a STIPEND, it is a type of a small tax refund the System throws at them.

Yeah, it's a stipend, and I think it should be eliminated. It's all part of the steep, slippery slope toward public funding of all private schools, which is clearly what these advocates of free private schools are after. We're happy (well, maybe not happy) to fund a single public school system; if that's not good enough for you, feel free to open up your own wallet and buy what you want -- just like if you don't think the local police department is sufficient to protect your property, you're welcome to buy your own alarm system, hire your own private security guard(s), and so on. What's next, taxpayer subsidy of security guards at gated communities? Pay your own bills if you want something beyond what we're already providing.

Ken, you are so full of personal advise for me, wow! Do you always tell people who do not agree with your opinion on matters of public debate how they should live, or do you have a special for me? In any case, I will take you lead and give you a piece of unsolicited personal advise: if you like one-fits-all system, fee free to go to North Korea, they have a good one there for you. I bet you'd love it!

(my "exactly" was in response to Lisa...NOT Alex!)

Hel;p us understand this "will of the people" Susan. Is there verifaible results of a survey ro poll that was taken on this issue that you can provide to back up your claim or is this just you trying to dish your opinion and wants on the rest of us?

@wohopeful: there is no scientific survey, but look at the petitions - Hua Mei has about 50 signatures in support of their school. The petition against has over 1000 signatures. It doesn't take a scientist to figure that one out.

well put! There seems to be a strange arrogant brand of poster here: people who call public money “theirs” -- “our money”, in their parlance. Having appropriated public money, they then assume the right to tell everyone else to “open their wallets” and pay for private schools, if they don’t like the System we have. Slow down people, don’t rush to call public money “yours”, because it is not. Everyone who pays into the system has an equal say.

woho...."doesn't pass the mustard"?!! lol. Doesn't pass muster or doesn't cut the mustard.

If you don't like the system, you are free to run for the Board of Education and help change the system to your heart's content. We moved to Millburn/Short Hills for the schools. We pay property taxes, a huge chunk of which goes to the local school district as overseen by our elected representatives. The Hua Mei founders seek to circumvent that elected system by diverting our tax money (and those from other towns) to fund their desire for a specialized boutique education for their children without any oversight from ours, or any other school district. Until the law is changed giving local school boards oversight over niche charter schools, any charter schools should be limited to their original purpose - providing viable alternatives for failing school districts.

You are right, Alex, we all have an equal say. So, let's vote on it! If someone wants to bring a charter school to my district, then let them present their case and then let's vote. That way all taxpayers get their equal say.

Yes: we each have an equal say in how public education funds are spent on public education. We don't get to demand that public education funds be used to pay for private schools. That's not how private school has ever worked, and there's no reason it should start working that way now.

Ken, You have your way with language………………. in your parlance, public school funds are “your money”, and now you are messing up the connotations of “public” and “private” schools. I suspect, you do it deliberately. So, here it is: public schools are funded by tax dollars and are tuition free to the public. Charter schools are public tuition free schools funded by tax dollars. Private schools are funded by tuition fees. Stop calling “public” “private” only because it suits your agenda.

Alex, calling a charter school "public" is debatable. Public schools are overseen by an ELECTED Board of Education and the budgets are VOTED on by taxpayers. Charters have no local oversight and can spend their money any way they want. The only thing public about them is their ablity to use public money. Not fair.

oh dear! Time for Mary to review your latest posts.

wohopeful,
You're on the edge here. I think you can disagree with Sandy without accusing her of discrimination. Let's not get hyperbolic.

In what way is this discrimination? This is not directed at one race, since I assume that anyone can apply to Hua Mei.

Ms. Raab, I'm sure you are aware of the Terms of Use policy regarding your repeated spamming of these discussions with your petition links. I would hate to see you suspended for violation.

So I guess that would also apply to the Hua Mei founder's posting of their website and petition info on this site as well? C'mon wohopeful, get real.....

Alex, there are no funds per student. The average cost per student is simply the total school budget divided by the number of students in a district. It is an average - some children cost much less to educate, some much more. Regular ed students cost less than special need students and elementary students cost less than high school students. Therefore, when a charter takes 90% of the average cost/student, there is no way of knowing how much that specific child costs to educate. If he or she is a regular ed, elem. student, then it probably is less than the 90% the charter receives for them.

Also, there is a drain on the school district's budget when children leave for charter schools. As someone who has run a business, I am sure that you understand the concept of fixed, variable and marginal costs. The fixed costs of running a district are high and, because they are fixed costs, they do not decrease when a few children leave a district, especially when the children leaving are coming from a variety of schools. Since 80% or more of the budget is in personnel, you need to eliminate a teacher before a district really saves money. When 10-20 students leave a district from several different elementary schools, the fixed costs remain behind and must be covered by the remaining students.

There are many things broken about NJ charter laws. These must be fixed before new charters are approved, especially in districts with successful schools, where there is no demonstrable need.

M. Moore, I absolutely agree with you points, they are well put and thoroughly reasonable. What I differ with you on is the premise. You seem to want to preserve the SD per se. I’d like to see it reduced as an entity to a bare minimum (administrative buildings, superintendants, and fixed costs maintaining dead bureaucracy that drain money from teaching, etc., NOT TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS). Once the bureaucratic edifice of managers is reduced to the minimum, I am all for great teaching and funding it to its best.
What I like about charter schools is that the best of them keep bureaucracy small and teaching effective, and as such are, in my view, the best alternative to SD monstrosities.

I really have no interest in preserving the bureaucratic structure as it is, so if funds drain from it, I think it is to the best, AS LONG AS “DRAINED”FUNDS REMAIN IN EDUCATION AND ARE USED FOR TEACHING (caped for those who like to re-interpret to make an opponent look as unattractive as possible, so please don’t: I LOVE education)

Alex, I'd like to see the end to regulation after regulation coming from the state, unfunded mandates from the federal gov't which lead to an over-focus on testing and many other things that get in the way of teaching, but I don't think taking money away on one end without fixing the other is the way to go, if you understand my wording.

I love my school district and I am very happy with the education my son is receiving. Is it perfect for him? Absolutely not (I don't like Everyday Math), but like life, nothing is perfect. I don't want to see further cuts made because of a charter school that benefits the few, rather than the many (I'm channeling Mr. Spock here, to go with your Borg analogy). The state needs to be more deliberate, more focused and more careful about oversight, need and funding re: charter schools.

M Moore. We all have somewhat different needs as parents. I could see that an above average child would be well served in a good SD, or at least they should. I have a highly gifted child, and dealing with the SD is a pain. If it were OK with me that my HG child is turned by the SD into a high average one -- which it seems they intend to do -- I’d feel less pain, but it is not OK with me: a mind is a terrible thing to waste. A Mandarin immersion school would serve us very well, because it would keep kid’s mind busy in elementary school. As it is now, the kid is learning to space out and pass time because only one one-hour pull out class a week is challenging enough, and the school is refusing to accelerate. The SD bureaucracy is like a thick brick wall. When I read comments here that I should pack my bags and go to a private school (which I can’t even afford) and that the SD is not designed to serve “boutique” needs I am certainly inspired to “take my pen” and give it my best shot to object.

Thanks Marian. It's downright depressing to think what could happen here.

Susan, Sorry, it is hard to take yor arguement seriously. As someone who ran a business for the last 12 years, nothing you say squares with Economics 101 about supply, demand, taxes, budgets and cash flows. I don’t want to go into the details, maybe someone with an economics degree would find time to throw in their weight. Just please don’t call my argument fallacy.

Ok, let's try it this way: I pay $10,000/year in school taxes on my house and I have 3 kids in the public schools. If I move and sell my house to someone with no children in the public schools, they still pay $10,000/year to the schools. This is true for every house in town. The school budget depends on some people using the schools and some not, but still paying into the pot. Does this make better sense?

Alex, Please see my question to you below. I'd like to tap into your business knowledge to find out this: What will be the savings to the existing school district when one first-grader leaves to go to a charter school? If you or anyone can show me where the savings will be realized -- equal to to the total amount of the check that the district must write to the charter -- then I will be convinced. Thank you.

KLF, on economics, see my response to M.Moore. As to charter schools in well functioning school districts, it is exactly where they make sense. Let’s face it: parents who are struggling to put food on their tables and, perhaps, struggling with their English would not be too interested in teaching their kids Chinese, while affluent parent could (and I would argue, should). If you’d check out Independence Charter School in Philadelphia, you’d know that they have Spanish Immersion (popular among college educated parents who see no problem in teaching their kids to read in English at home) and Spanish Enhanced (popular with working class parent who naturally like a good school for their kids). This division is not school-enforced, it is a natural result of parent independent choices.
I just visited Mandarin immersion start-up in another very well off NJ SD (which I won’t mention for fear of backlash). I’d love to put my kid in Mandarin immersion while it still makes sense age-wise, but no nearby school district offers it (CA and MN, if I am correct, do).

Alex -- I looked at your response to M. Moore in which you said you this it is "best" to drain funds from existing school district. So are you saying that in fact there will be no commensurate cost-savings to existing schools if a child leaves the district to go to a charter school? Are you saying that indeed the existing public school will be 'drained?"

KLF,
I said I wanted SD bureaucracy drained , not schools. I am very clear on this. I even caped my point.

KLF, Let’s focus on schools here please. I did not talk about the police force, yet, three people already brought this police “argument” to support their claims about schools, which they obviously fail to argue on merit. Analogies only work so far, especially when off the start off the goal is to extend opponent’s logic into the absurd all the while pretending that it was the opponent's arguement. I don't mince words and state my positions clearly. If I wanted to argue about police, I’d find a police debate forum, and participate there.

Alex, I think that starting another school in an already-well-functioning district is absurd. The absurdity that you so easily see with the charter police dept is the same absurdity that everyone else here sees with the charter school. Now you know how we feel.

KLF, I can’t disagree more. Charter schools in failing SDs are about offering core educational alternatives to disadvantaged populations; they don’t need Mandarin immersion schools there, really. Offering a Mandarin Immersion school in a good SD is a great alternative for parents who could appreciate the knowledge gained but can’t afford a private school (not that Mandarin Immersion private schools are plentiful, either)

Gary,
Can you forward that email? I'm at mary@patch.com. Nothing's come over the wires yet.

@ mary, et al: I may have jumped the gun here. I read an e-mail I received from change.org that, on second glance, is more than confusing, I'm trying to confirm its validity now.

Gary,
The email is confusing, but it is merely a call to put pressure on Cerf to reject the application. No decision yet.

Charter schools in failing SDs are about offering core educational alternatives to disadvantaged populations; they don’t need Mandarin immersion schools there, really. Offering a Mandarin Immersion school in a good SD is a great alternative for parents who could appreciate the knowledge gained but can’t afford a private school (not that Mandarin Immersion private schools are plentiful, either)

@ wohopeful: Julia Sass Rubin's published position on this matter is abundantly clear and not at all contrary to the view of most of those opposing the creation of Hua Mei:

"Public education is a communal good, like public roads, law enforcement, and national defense. Such communal goods are paid for by all of us, regardless of whether we use them, and must be controlled via democratic decision-making that reflects the will of the majority while ensuring equal rights for the minority."

Ms. Cumming, I understood your question to be "why take money from a good school district to fund them (charter schools)?" Since Ms. Rubin has a charter school in her posh school district and as a parent of a charter school student I would think she could offer first hand experience to answer that very question and help you understand how the innovations and experimentation able to be done in a charter school setting is beneficial to even a highly achieving school district when done in a cooperative manner.

Cynthia, I agree with you on the Hua Mei founder's qualifications. However, I wonder whether it is also going to seek funding from the Chinese government. I have read about other Mandarin schools funded partly by the government of China.

Sandy, I think that that would be a different kind of school. It would probably be one where all the students need to be of Chinese heritage and the language will be used exclusively. That is how our Swedish schools in the world are run. We get support from our government but all the children then have to have Swedish as a live language in their homes.

Cynthia,
Immersion and school taught second language are two different beasts. Children who study Chinese in grades 8-12 stand a chance to speak, read and write some. They would probably have a very hard time understanding native spoken language, if at all, unless they further pursue it in college. They would also speak with a very thick accent, given they way Chinese is spoken (four tones and one tone-less tone per each “word”; these are pretty much indistinguishable for English speakers).
Children who start immersion at 5-6 or earlier, effortlessly learn to speak it without any accent and understand fluent Chinese within a few months. I just spoke to parents of two Caucasian girls, 3 and 5, who started Mandarin immersion this fall: their girls hear and understand “same” word in different tones as different words.

Not to mention that the charter only gets 90% of the per pupil costs. That is a 10% savings to the taxpayers for every child that is enrolled in a charter school!

Hey, Alex and Wohopeful--

Again, if a child leaves a public school, the district still pays the same amount for the teacher, electricity, heat, principal, etc., etc. Fixed costs. Not going to change. Keeping 10% of a student's "cost" does not cover the fixed costs. So where is the "savings?"

Adam, this is very vague. Please spell it out for me. Let's assume 20 students leave one school district to go to a charter. School district must write a check for, say, $200k. Please itemize for us where the $200k in cost savings is coming from. Please be specific. Please convince me of the cost savings. I WILL be on your side if I can be convinced that there will not be any negative economic impact on the school districts. Your colleague Alex has already stated that he WANTS the school districts to be drained of funds. Perhaps someone as reasonable as you can actually itemize the savings for me.

@ Adam Kraemer & wohopeful: I've previously challenged you both to present both the math and the timelines ilistrating how and when any effect district would receive tangible savings by welcoming a charter school and you have failed to do so.

Why?

Because you can't.

Rehtoric is just that whereas math is precise. Present yours or give it a rest.

Hardly a savings. Maybe on paper, but that is down the road when a district knows how many students it is losing and what the associated cost is. Only then can the District budget for that and the "10%." In the meantime, the district will take an initial hit in the first year when the students leave and that unbudgeted-for shortfall will likely be made up with increases in taxes. Therefore, please don't tell me that my taxes aren't paying for someone's kid's niche education.

KLF, “itemizing” is consuming request, and I am not a SD treasurer, so I’ll take it easy. Let’s consider that 20 elementary students leave (or nor enroll into) the SD, and go into a newly opened immersion charter school instead. This means an entire classroom, supplies and one teacher less for the SD to support. If an average cost per student is, for argument’s sake, $10,000.00 and the SD cuts the charter school a check for 90% of it, it puts $180,000.00 in the budget of the charter school, and takes $180,000.00 out of the SD budget. The SD gets to keep $20,000.00 to cover the “unused” portion fixed costs/bureaucracy, which had serviced those 20 students prior to their leaving and is now underutilized. (If SD spends more than 10% of average cost per student on that, shame on them).

Of course, in real life things are a bit more complicated: 20 students may come out of a few schools, not one, so the teacher’s position may not be easily cut, and a few classrooms could go underutilized for a time, resulting in temporary SD loses. Given the economies of some scale though, this should average out in a few years. If they can’t balance their books after a few years, something is wrong with their business model. On the other side, if schools are at capacity as Adam Kraemer writes, the savings for the SD would be immediate, no need to wait a few years, So, that’s my basic math.

Gary, you are charging that your opponents use rhetoric, but should use math and facts. Why don’t you take your advice, switch from rhetoric to facts and demonstrate with itemized numbers how a charter school would “harm” the SD.

@ Alex: Start with a faulty premise and yo are bound to reach a faculty conclusion.

It is disenguous to believe that 20 students plucked from any community to populate Hua Mei would be from a single school, or neighborhood, and result in any savings whatsoever.

In West Orange, we have 7 grade schools. Spread those children among them, and even assume they'll all be from the same grade, and you reduce the population by less than three children per school.

At best, you reduce a classroom from +/- 25 by 2...and that results in little more than some textbooks left in a storage cabinet but, no reduction in teachers or overhead.

You could take five hundred kids out of the West Orange Public Schools and you still would not necessarily reduce any personnel or overhead expenses.

I say no real cost savings b/c there is no way that the district is going to save anywhere near that figure by having 78 fewer kids randomly spread out over 6 grades in five different schools. We'd have to cut 10 teachers to achieve $994,664 in savings. Yet, even if the 78 kids were all in the same grade at the same school, we'd be able to cut, at most, 3 teachers.

The actual cost to the district will be even higher because of transportation. If the school locates at the old St. Joseph's in far SE Maplewood as the founders proposed, there are going to be a lot of kids living beyond the 2-mile limit, including most of SO and a fair chunk of MW. For example, Prospect Street + Montague Place, just inside SO, is 2 miles from St. Joseph's. Ridgewood Road + Hoffman Street in MW is 2 miles from St. Joseph's. Newstead is practically in another country. That much in additional transportation costs will almost certainly wipe out whatever marginal savings there might be from having an average of 2.6 fewer kids per grade per elementary school.

Nuff said.

Yeah, Miriam, NO SAY for the SD! And isn’t it great: a small school would be responsible to the parents without the SD involvement. If parents and students are happy, they will stay, and the school would become a successful alternative. If they do not do a good job, the enrollment would fall and the charter will fold. I’d be willing to take my chance on it. If you don’t , please don’t tell me to pack my bags and pay for a private school, so that the SD could throw into their pot 100% of my unused-by-me school tax dollars.

The SD IS the parents and everyone else who pays taxes. They vote on the budget and for a BOE to oversee the SD. That's the point of a democracy and you just advocated the opposite.

"And isn’t it great: a small school would be responsible to the parents without the SD involvement."

Sounds like private school. Then the parents to whom the school is responsible should be the parents paying for the school, not my taxes.

@ Alex: Mine and Marian's math is dead on and you clearly don't understand the proposal, what will happen year one and the impact on local school districts that will be immediate, with no corresponding savings.

Hua Mei proposes to begin (year 1) with students in K-2; a total of eighteen to be drawn from West Orange.

Ergo, my matgh is accurate and on point: 18 students divided by 7 grades schools = 2.57 students per school, divided by 3 grades = > 1 student per grade, per school.

There will be no savings in either teachers or facility overhead as a result.

What will occur is an unfunded mandate of paying their tution to Hua Mei: $20,000 (ballpark annual average per student) x 90% x 18 = $324,000.

Add to this the cost of transporting them (estimates to be $12-15,000 per child per year ( or $270,000) and you've just taken $594,000 from the local school district without a penny in corresponding savings.

This is an absolute reality you can't dispute and, when and if Hua Mei were to reach 500 students (spread over three communities) there would still be no savings as they will be spread over 13 grade levels and result in no reduction of fixed expenses in any of the effected districts...while adding a transportation cost to each.

Alex, I am not seeing how the SD won't be on the losing end of this proposition. Economies of scale are at work. In fact, we can probably achieve the same thing -- creation of immersion language schools and other specialty schools -- more effectively by COMBINING school districts to create greater economies of scale, with even greater school choice. I just don't see how reducing economies of scale can be an economic advantage. Used to be that certain factions in NJ government were in favor of merging school districts to further the idea of shared services. The charter school movement does the opposite.

KLF,
I don’t want to sound like I contradict myself, but… While I believe SDs should watching their money as good businesses do, other aspects of business, such as economies of scale -- while they work economically -- do not serve to the benefit of the students. The bigger the structure (in business or government), the more management it requires. All sorts of middle managers get in between the decision makes and the teachers and students, and the educational process goes off kilter into the realm of the ridiculous directly proportionately to the number of managers and “specialists”.
At our recent parent teacher conference 5 staff members were present: the K teacher, the gifted teacher, the math specialist, the reading specialist, and some other kind of specialist I don’t remember. During the course of the conversation, the math specialist, a nice lady, much younger that I, broke a discussion how they teach subtraction now, as opposed to how they taught it recently (now was, of course, better). It took some effort not to get sidetracked into telling her that in my times we also studied and --surprise! – learned to subtract just as well, and the probably did just as well since the Arabic numbers were introduced.
I was fondly remembering the beloved small private school (preschool to G6)my kid had attended, and how my conferences there ran without the “aid” specialists.

Alex, my name is Marian Raab and I have never advised you to pack your bags and pay for private school. I am advising you that the proposed cost savings you assert would occur from a Boutique Mandarin-immersion charter school in my hometown of Maplewood are completely false.

To Marian and Gary. You criticize my math and, I think, fudge yours. Most student would going into immersion charter would be K or, maybe, 1st graders, not from ALL elementary grades. Other immersion charters I know started that way. How would you “immerse” a student into a 6th grade Mandarin curriculum without prior Mandarin fluency?
Having established with a small number of students, the charter than grows through new enrollment into K each year. It is logical to assume that the loss to the SD would be in K, and by non-enrollment. So, as district population grows with time, there will be less need to expand SD schools/hire new teachers to accommodate new students, because a portion of them would be absorbed by the charter. However, if SD is over capacity, the saving would be immediate.

Talking about non-financial arguments, I have one: Why have both of Hua Mei's applications to the state NEVER ever included an Abbott district? (Abbott districts are cities and towns with high incidents of poverty and a large proportion of minority students.) For example, saaaay Irvington, Orange, East Orange and Newark???

Once again Hua Mei's founders filed an application to the DOE that appears to many of us who oppose it to clearly discriminate based on race and socio-economic status.

That's because the 3 towns Hua Mei only proposes to serve (Maplewood, South Orange and West Orange) are contiguous to all the Abbott districts mentioned above and all of these urban districts are specifically encouraged to establish charter schools under state law. What is up with that?

Is there some law that states a charter school application must include an Abbott district? I've never seen or heard of any provision in the current law for this requirement. If people would truly look objectively at the concept of charter schools and the merits of Hua Mei application then you might see how the investment in this charter will ultimately increase the desirability of our communities and have a positive impact on our investments. Allowing yourselvesto be dragged down into the financial argument or the abbott vs non-abbott arguments is not very positive or productive.

Ms. Raab, I am not opposed to a change in the approval process for charter schools and have never said that I am. What I am against is villifying the Hua Mei Charter School, which I believe has merit for our communities, in order to further a different cause. The Hua Mei team has done nothing but follow the current law governing their application for a charter school, there is no reason to villify these people or the application.

As I stated to you previously Ms. Raab, if your beef is truly with local input into the application approval process then your villification of Hua Mei and the founders is misdirected. Your issue would seem better directed at the Democrat Senate Majority in Trenton who currently does not agree with you. Perhaps take a page out of the OWS crowd and move your venue from here to Trenton and you might accomplish your goal of changing the application approval process if that truly is your goal.

@ wohopeful: Nobody is villifying the founders of Hua Mei but, we are pointing out the fact that no economies will be achieved (indeed cost will increase for districts supplying students) and the improproety of having minimal local input on the decision making process.

There will be no savings for West Orange in year one (with 18 students proposed) and none when enrollment reaches maturity (500 students or 156 per sending district) at some future date.

Even at that point, the math is simple for West Orange: 156 students divided by 13 grades = 12 students per grade.

156 students divided by 11 school buildings = 14 students per school building.

Current enrollment = 6,800 divided by 13 grades = 524 children per grade.

A reduction of 12 students per grade will not result in any reduction of either staff or facilities; what it will result in is one less child in 12 already well-populated classrooms at any given time.

What it will result in is a new $2,808,000 ($20,000 x 90% x 156) unfunded mandate (in tuition paid to Hua Mei) and a transportation bill of $2,340,000 (156 x $15,000) or total of $6,148,000 ripped from a budget already with no room for any discretionary spending.

I challnege you to try to disupute the math and show me the error in my reasoning.

Mr. Englert, while I appreciate your expertise with a calculator I think there are far more benefits and options to be weighed than what your simple mathematics take into account. Thank you for the exercise though.

@ wohopeful: Spending thirty years and, quite literally growing up, in the car rental business (and at a time before computers and doing time and mileage computations in one's head was the rule), I had no need to use a calculator for any of the computations presented above...and the fact I didn't is compliments of the West Orange Public Schools, thank you.

Whatever esoteric and intangible benefits you see from establishment of a Mandarin immersion charter school, I believe whether it is created or not is (first and foremost) a business decision that must be made with the best interest of the taxpayers and in being good stewards of the funds they devote to public education. I also very much believe in the fundamental principle of majority rule.

A simple cost-benefit analysis clearly indicates that there is a substantial cost and no corresponding savings, while any benefit is speculative at best.

Further, it is also abundantly clear to me that the vast majority of the citizens residing in the effected communities are also opposed to this initiative.

The decision for me is then abundantly clear: Hua Mei should not receive a state charter.

Sadly, Woho, the charter school founders have their own agendas. In particular, Hua Mei founders are not even career educators. Their interest is not in strengthening the entire district, but opening their own school, at taxpayer expense.

As for the superintendents of both school districts, they are correct in their assessments that this charter school is of no benefit to our already successful districts.

Mr. Englert, my compliments to the WO public schools on your behalf. But according to the mathematics I was taught: 2,808,000+2,340,000=5,148,000. ;-)

@ wohopeful: I stand corrected...Blackberry typo...fat thumbs and tiny keys...$5,148,000 is correct but, still a huge number with no corresponding savings, IF Hua Mei's enrollment ever reached that level.

Perhaps, but your analysis fails to take into account the many other benefits to the communities, residents, families, and children.

@ wohopeful: Whatever benefits you allude to need to be quantified in order to be relevant to any cost-benefit analysis, If you can't adequately articulate what they are, and apportion some financial value to them, it really doesn't help your cause.

I don't see a personal attack — although I'm watching the snarkiness.

@ Alex: Disagree with "(my) reasoning" all you'd like but, the discussion would be much better served if you (or wohopeful or anyone else) did so with some math and defensible logic of your own. Unfortunately, none of you have chosen to do so and the challenge remains: my numbers/overview are rooted in documentable fact; please demonstrate where I'm wrong.

As a pilot and life-long fan and student of the space program, the NASA space pen vs. Russian pencil is an old bromide. What's missing from your little tale, unfortunately, is the vastly different environments, concerns, conditions and equipment then in use in the two programs and the tale's genesis.

Having learned some very costly and valuable lessons in 1967 with the Apollo 1 fire (spark + pure oxygen x Velcro = catastrophe), there was then a concerted effort to leave absolutely nothing to chance in a manned vehicle being sent 250,000 miles beyond spaceship earth.

The "Million Dollar Space Pen," however, is a myth. Paul C. Fisher developed the Space Pen (primarily a pressurized ink cartridge in a non-conductive casing) and supplied them at no charge to NASA.

Both your arguments and analogies would have far more impact if they were rooted in fact, as mine most definitely are.

Gary,
I have written to you TWICE that your very premise that kids would be pulled out of all classes equally is a fallacy. Once it is taken out, all your math falls apart. But your whole argument rests on, so it both times you evaded this subject. You simply repeated yourself, claiming that none can argue with you math. So here it is again: no parent in his/her right mind would pull a kid out of 8th grade, or 6th grade, or 4th grade to put into a start-up immersion charter.
You said above that you spent time in business. You than know very well how to write a business plan, and how one can move around projected numbers. I do. I wanted to quote Richard Branson on “number magic” and how it can pull one’s leg. Unfortunately, I could not quickly locate the quote in my copy of his book, so I would have to stick with my expertise. What you are doing is moving around projected numbers, claiming the exercise to be “indisputable math”.
Finally, to the NASA story. “I heard in on NPR”, as they say. I rely on their fact checkers, and trust them more than I do you, sorry. If they did a poor job, all concerns should go NPR: I never claimed to be a historian, and do not have time or inclination to study primary sources.

@ Alex: my premise does not "fall apart" as my argument began with the acknowledgement that Hua Mei proposes to enroll 18 children (from West Orange) in grades K-2. The example I provided indicated that would result in a 1st year, unfunded mandate (to the West Orange Public Schools) of $594,000 (including tuition and transportation).

IF Hua Mei ever grew to 500 students and a K-12 model, and still took 1/3 of its enrollment from West Orange, the bill would be $5,148,00 (including tuition and transportation).

There would be NO corresponding savings in either case, though there WILL be new transportation costs (argue the number if you wish) and the fact that enrollment WILL be accomplished by lottery pretty much insures these propsective students would be spread out over our Township's 7 grade schools.

As to what you think you heard (about Space Pens) on NPR, either the report or your hearing are faulty. While part of the legend is undoubtedly due to Paul Fischer's own self promotion, here are just a couple of links to articles that debunk the myth:

http://io9.com/5838635/the-million-dollar-space-pen-hoax

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/613/1

Sure, Unfortunately, lottery is a lottery, not a sure thing.

We also intend to be in the lottery if charter is approved.....

I don't mind hearing two sides of the story. But this was obviously a story tee'd up by founders of the Hua Mei school. Frankly, as someone with children who have gone through the public school system, I read about the parents the writer presented and merely thought "clueless!" And we're supposed to be excited that someone might move out to New Jersey to take advantage of a Boutique Charter School? Why would we encourage a drain of our tax dollars from our excellent public schools?

Sarah,
I think your question is for the founders of Hua Mei.
As Patch editor it is my job to present the facts as I find them. Because our coverage has been overwhelmingly about the opposition to the charter, I have been looking for proponents of Hua Mei to profile and interview to give a view of the other side of the argument. These are the three families who were willing to come forward. It is not my job to tell these families that they are not the right PR tool for Hua Mei because of georgraphic location, etc. My job is to present the information and let the reader draw the conclusions.
Also, the article starts with two paragraphs outlining how the opponents greatly outnumber proponents locally. There are also some paragraphs late in the story outlining the positions of the major opponents and linking to the many previous stories explaining and following the opposition in detail.
As a news media outlet, it is our job to present all sides of a story.

Sarah, May I ask, what do you have against the Brooklyn family? Is anything wrong if smart educated people consider moving here? Or they are “not from here”, so “their opinion does not count ”? Or is it, “We have it good enough here, don’t mess it up”?
I find it stunning that a proposal for a diverse little school is inviting so much spite. I think, what is happening is that the comfortable majority is weigh in to squish something really interesting because…it takes a bit of money out of the pot?...is threatening? ...dirrefent?
Just look around: the low level education compared to other developed countries. 40-50 million people without medical insurance. A military budget larger than all countries of the world combined. The biggest debt ever.
We live on a very big island called N America. We have under-populated Canada on one side and underdeveloped Mexico on the other. In the age of steam ships and rotary phones we got used to playing by our rules and getting away with it, and grew too comfortable doing things one way.
In the meantime, China pulled itself out of the rut into being the second largest economy. They have a billion of hardworking people and 4 thousand years of culture. I am afraid, if we don’t open up our minds, we might be confronted by some unpleasant realities shortly. Fighting change and innovation might win this small round. As a whole, it is not a very productive way to be and may cost us dearly.

No, though I'd like to be. My kid is currently taking private Mandarin classes and watches Mandarin movies, but this is far too limited to learn the language well. I am tired to be involved and too lazy to keep learning it, which is a requirement for success with a young kid. Keeping it us will be an uphill battle.

Is it fair to ask the taxpayers to pay for Advanced Placement classes when only a portion of the student population participates? Is it fair to ask the taxpayers to pay for Band, Football, Baseball, Chorus, etc. where only a fraction of the students participate?

I do not see much difference between parents advocating for special programs for their children that have to be funded by the taxpayers and the parents who advocate for a charter school which would be funded by the same tax dollars.

Then it would seem fair to consider the funding of charter schools as special programs that need to be funded by the same tax dollars paying for all of the special programs you listed which only a fraction of students participate. And some of those programs you listed are mandated by the state with no "vote" by the local community i.e. Special Ed, ESL, gym and health.

@ Alex: Nobody has anything against a "Brooklyn family" or "smart educated people consider moving here" but, the single salient fact remains that these particular folks currently have no skin in the game: they're voicing an opinion that may well effect the property taxes (and educational services) in communities in which they do not live!!!

It's also telling how few locals Hua Mei has managed to rally and actually put a name, face and reputation behind their support of this initiative.

What I think you fail to realize is that the opposition to this charter is not so much about inhibiting innovation or championing some educational bureaucracy; it's about maintaining what we already have. The essence of management is allocating scarce resources and that's essentially all most of us (knowledgeable and already involved people) are trying to do.

I don't know what type of civic or volunteer involvement you have or had but, pointing out problems is the easy part, it's the solutions that are difficult to come by.

Gary,
As long as people’s minds are locked in “scarce resources”, “property taxes” and “maintaining what we already have” conversation, the answer would be “no”, because it comes out of fear of loosing what one already has. If same people choose to see the same facts as “ an interesting opportunity”, “innovation” and “a new choice” the answer could be “yes”, because is comes out of a possibility of gaining something new and exciting. You keep working hard to keep it the former. I am trying to open the latter –both examples the civic involvement.. And we do see problems in different places: you in a new threat, I - in educational bureaucracy that breeds inflexibility.

I love the way you start with "if twenty students from a given grade leave," and then continue as if that's going to happen, ever. (And it would need to be twenty students from a given grade IN A SINGLE SCHOOL, unless you think elementary school parents are going to put up with busing our kids out of our neighborhood schools to help a charter school that no one wants, which, no.)

Turn off the email alerts; with over 200 comments on this thread, it saves a lot of time!

Unfortunately, in many cases charter schools are not "incubators of change and innovation that will lead to a successful advantage for all of the children" They are for profit enterprises making money for owners and investors - like Christie's pal Cerf who was an executive at one of these companies. The answer is not to sell off the commons, but to address the scarcity issue freeing up funds for taxpayer sponsored and endorsed innovation. Have the fight about what type of MAgnets to set up at the ballot box, where it belongs or hire/fire school administrators based on their vision.

Carolyn,
I did not specifically research charters, but I am not sure any of them “make money for owners and investors”. I think you are confusing charters and for-profit operators that, sometimes, are allowed to take over some SD failing schools on claims that private entities could do it better (for-profits can’t, they have the wrong motives).
I’d be happy to read and re-consider what I wrote if you could point me to contrary information. In my (average Joe’s) experience, charters fall into two categories: charters in poor SDs that strive to provide basic education to underprivileged populations where SDs consistently failed, and “boutique” charters, such is the Independence Charter School in Philly ( Spanish immersion) that serve middle class that wants something different than SD provide.

But, @Alex, when you say there are two types of charter schools, I agree, except the example you give of a boutique charter school is in Philadelphia, which I assume (it being a city district) is NOT a thriving school district.

I don't think ANYONE who is opposing this particular charter school in this thread would have much of an issue with it being located in one of the nearby Abbot districts, whether it was focused on basic education or Mandarin (or Spanish) immersion: channeling per-pupil average spending amounts -- which are largely state dollars -- and channeling motivated students who want to learn out of failing districts and into charter schools.

Doing so in successful districts like West Orange (where Gary, Cynthia, and myself all are, and where I don't believe you are) is counter-productive. It sounds like you have issues with your kindergartener's teacher, or perhaps with the school in general, but there is a world of difference between the issues you are personally dissatisfied with (being unhappy FIVE professionals attended your parent-teacher conference? That's sort of the opposite of what you'd expect in a failing district, where most PARENTS might not even show.) and the real issues facing Abbot districts.

Ken, I have a problem with the SYSTEM. I am an entrepreneur, and I do not like stratified stale bureaucracies. As an entrepreneur, who frankly has hard time in this economy, I do not like to see bureaucrats getting six figure salaries, benefits, pension plans and, in some cases, settlements on (partially) my buck, then whining about how hard they have it. [If I began whining, my clients would quickly find another vendor]. Why should they whine? Because they get an uninterrupted flow of money out of. taxpayer pocket?
I am also a former college professor with a PhD. I know a good educator when I see one. I never worked in secondary ed, but the issues of teaching effectively are similar – this is why my kid is in the gifted program. I find the many SD educators are appalling mediocre, to the point that they do not know “excellence” as a concept, though this is a whole other subject.
When I deal with small independent school principals, they exist in the same world that I do, and when they do a great job, I respect it. I speak two languages fluently and two badly. I have been recently studying 5th-Chinese, with my kid. I know the difference between immersion and second language. I’ve met some truly brilliant people in charter start ups, especially Mandarin start-ups, because the Chinese who come up with these ideas are usually highly educated and highly driven, and am willing to give it a try.

You are correct that a large district, such as the county-wide districts in some states, are able to support theme-based magnet schools. With a large population base, it is much easier to find sufficient enrollment for many different types of specialized schools. But it's definitely a trade-off.

The private school you describe sounds just like my kids' public elementary!

2. We've evolved a long way beyond the single school marm in a one room school house and with good reason. The changes and expansion in the education apparatus was generally as a result of the institutuion of best practices based on peer review.

Yes, there are curriculum supervisors, specialists in specific disciplines, speech language pathologists, psychologists and counselors of every stripe that weren't in the mix 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. And, yes, a better and more thorough education is the practical result.

Disassembling any of this, without truly understanding how and why it came to be and the purpose it serves would be a mistake. Much like the untenable load put on the typical DYFS caseworker (and the horrors that often result), we must be ever mindful of the time and effort the education of a child actually takes and no one that no one person can wear all the hats and fill all the roles.

(to be continued...)

We need to embrace change if we want to improve and move forward and compete in tomorrow's world, after all where would we be had our ancestors not had the foresight to challenge the concept of "the single school marm in a one room school house".

Combining 3 district superintendents into one job results in an approximate savings of 500k annually, consider combining curriculum directors for 4 discipline areas in those same 3 districts and you have another approximate 1,200k annually, not to mention reductions of secretaries and duplicate support staff members. Thumb out the window that is approximately 2 million in savings...that sends a lot of children to charter/magnate schools.

@ wohopeful: The expectation that one could hypothetically combine three school districts, eliminate two superintendents and pay one to do the job for no greater compensation than he would be paid to run a single, smaller district is simply disengenuous and fails to acknowledge we all function in a free market economy.

In the New York metropolitan area, the highest paid school superintendent (Comack, NY; poulation 36,367) has a salary of $657,970. In Syosset, NY (population 18,544) the superintendent's salary is $506,381. Commack is essentially the size and affluence of Montclair while Syosset mirrors Short Hills-Millburn.

The superintendent of schools in Beaumont, TX (population 118,296, albeit with a significantly lower cost of living than metropolitan New York) receives a salary of $356,000 to run an operation (for what its worth) that roughly equals the size of combining the public schools of Montclair, West Orange and Millburn.

If you speak with any local school board, you'd quickly realize that there are not a slew of qualified people vying or these positions (at any price), let alone at a compensation level capped at $175,000 (yes, subject to some waivers) as demanded by Governor Christie.

Accordingly, my far more educated opinion would suggest you are tabulating potential savings that don't exist, based on the elimination of personnel without any understanding of what they do and how necessary it is.

Just some clarification, I am not suggesting we get a 1 to 1 savings from consolidation e.g. combine 3 districts and reduce 3 Superintendents, 3 business mangers, etc. Clearly when you have a large organization, a more complex structure is required. However, based on the limited research i have done, there are top notch districts of significantly larger sizes than the ones we support in NJ . Palo ALto CA is a great example, 11,500 kids, about 3 times the size of MBSH that operates on approximately 20% more revenue a year ($100M as opposed to MBSH's $80M) with a high school ranked 42 in the US, way ahead of MBSH's which was last ranked mid 200's on the same evaluation. SO how does Palo Alto CA where school funding rates are much lower than NJ do it? TO start, their Board of Ed is made up of highly experienced managers form surrounding successful Silicon Valley companies. I would suggest while we need gifted professional educators to educate our kids -and I beleive we have lots of those around - we also need innovative thinkers with management experience to run the operations of our schools. And as far as having 5 folks in a parent meeting, especially the gifted teacher, I would love that! I believe my daughter is gifted and will likely have her privately assessed as there is no assessment and no services in my district other then in class differentiation.

Carolyn,
I imagine Palo Alto would be an exceptional SD. A friend recently moved there to teach at Stanford. He has three kids (only one school age yet), and was talking highly of the SD. They also have a Mandarin Immersion school, or even two. With people like that on the BOE, they would ensure that it is run well. I gave it a thought of moving there since the friend moved. I am a bit afraid of earthquakes.
As to five teachers in the meeting, I much preferred one good teacher in one small relatively shabby school with a great principal and a great program, but that was private…….

@ Carolyn Most and wophopeful: That the education establishment functions utilizing scientific process, embraces peer review and incorporates best practices, progressive change has been, and will continue to be, an ongoing process.

There may well be lessons to be learned from Palo Alto and other districts but, it also takes someone to devote the time to analyze, summarize and report on just what those successes might be.

If there's something there that makes sense, the word will get around and others will follow their lead. Like everything else, education evolves over time.

Alex
12:37 pm on Thursday, January 19, 2012

David,
May I ask you to ask some of these parents to consider posting here? We won’t be heard unless we speak out, and it is a place to do it.
If their voices are not heard, the assumption would be they don’t exist.

Why should we have to spend millions of dollars to prove anything? If they think this is such a great idea, let them run it as a private tuition based school -- like every other private school in the world used to be run before someone came up with this brilliant scam to get the public to pay for private schools -- and if it works so well, THEN let them apply to convert to public funding.

Otherwise, I'd like $12,000 a kid to prove that my television-immersion charter school can work.

@ Alberto Fernandez: The essential issue at hand is whether to fund this "experiment" and thereby by diminish financial resourses already needed, indeed already being consumed, in the donor districts. It would be far more compelling if any of these district were failing to provide a good education but, that simply isn't the case.
There is a drain on each district, with no corresponding savings, given both the inititial enrollment and projected growth of Hua Mei.

There is nothing that says charter schools are only appropriate for failing schools, in fact they are very beneficial to any number of districts regardless of performance and income stature. Just look at the posh suburbs of NJ where charter schools are thriving and quite beneficial to the community.

We cannot afford to ignore the change that is coming and intead of always eing behind te eight ball and aging to catch up we should invest now and be on the forefront. Our students , families and residents will all benefit from the charter schools coming to West Orange.

@ Adam Kraemer: "It should be noted that double accounting is in play???"

Would you care to explain that rather nebulous statement? There's no "double accounting" that I can see as the math is pretty straight forward based on the proposal being discussed. Hua Me will recruit 18 students (from West Orange) in year one from grades K-2. The district will be required to pay 90% of the average tuition apportioned to each (+/- $20,000 x 90% x 18 = $324,000) to Hua Mei and absorb new transportation costs for each (estimated by the Board to be $12-15,000 per, or a maximum of $270,000), for a total of $594,000 in new expenses to the district.

To be selected by lottery, the recruited students will be drawn from those currently enrolled (or to be enrolled) in 7 different grade schools (an average of < 3 students per school) and that distribution will NOT eliminate the need for any one teacher, or classroom. Hence, there is absolutely no savings that will be realized now or even in the future when the students drawn from West Orange will reach its project peak of 78 (or 13 children per grade, K-5). Even in that eventuality, you will only be drawing less than 2 children per grade, per school; nowhere near enough to eliminate a single teacher or classrom. To suggest otherwise is disengenuous.

(To be continued...)

The suggestion that savings can be realized through combining the municipal waste collection contracts with the Board of Ed's attests to your lack of historical perspective or awareness that this far from anything new and is re-examined when every new contract is bid. A Solid Waste Advisory Committee (I've sat on it and know this first hand) is formed to examine the current contract, issues that have appeared during its run and specs for a new RFP and bids constructed. The results are what they are with the contract(s) awarded to the lowest responsible bidder. If savings could have been realized, it would have been long since done and a mechanism already exists to monitor and re-examine any market changes. Call the Health Department to verify what I'm telling you.

Minimizing the impact that this new, unfunded mandate would have on the Board of Ed's budget by identifying it as 1/4 of 1% of its total is to fail to acknowledge that those funds are already committed. Unless you can identify a specific budget item (or series of items) that can be cut to make those funds available to support Hua Mei, your position is just so much hot air.

Lastly, the suggestion that the Chief Operating Officer (with a BA, MA, PhD and thirty years of professional experience) of an enterprise with a $130,000,000 annual budget, eleven separate facilities, 650 employees that serves 6,800 customers day in and day out, is overpaid with a $220,000 annual salary, is simply a failure to grasp that we live in a market rate economy.

What do you think a private sector COO running such an operation is paid?

Yes - I am talking with my wife and kids about it running for BOE again maybe the 4th time will work for me. As it is a large time commitment away from the family. I will confer with them and decide real soon. I think I can help keep what is good in our public schools good and maybe help make them better. I also think I can help improve what needs improvement in our schools. Part of my platform if I run will be to have a creative and positive use of charter to help improve the aspects of our public schools that could use improvement since the state will most likely require it any way.

Sometimes change requires sacrifice. We have an elected BOE that is tasked with determining what programs would need to be cut or ask they can take it to voters for anything over the 2% cap.

Great news.

@ Alex:

I am neither confusing a thing, nor am I ignorant of much pertaining to this issue.

With 30 years of business experience as a COO and with full P & L responsibility, I've written and executed far more business plans than you...and are clearly far more famiiar with the practical vs, theoretical, as well.

Susan--they can't come back if we fix NJ's broken charter school law and give LOCAL communities a say in what schools can open in their communities. And we have a great shot of getting a bi-partisan bill passed in the NJ Legislature this session doing just that. If you haven't already signed this important petition supporting local control of the charter school approval process, please take a moment to do so AND PASS IT ON!

http://www.change.org/petitions/new-jersey-communities-want-local-control-over-new-charter-schools-2

Actually, they "won" the right not to have my taxes pay for your child's niche private education.

@ Alex: Actually, our children (in West Orange at least) already have that opportunity (it is not now, nor will it ever be, a right) in an outstanding Mndarin Chinese language program that already exists at West Orange High School.

The citizens have also had the concept of majority rule reaffirmed.

Gary, I'd like to think you're right, but today's decision marked the fifth time a charter school in Montclair was denied. This was only the second time for Hua Mei. Don't you think they'll try again? Massive opposition and lack of significant support didn't bother them before, why should it now?

Sandy--LOL! Please keep passing on this petition for LOCAL control of the charter school approval process and Hua Mei will NOT come back...

http://www.change.org/petitions/new-jersey-communities-want-local-control-over-new-charter-schools-2

LOL x2!!!!