Wasn't original proposal for a K-5? This article says the new proposal is for a high school, is that correct? If so that's a big change. Is it am immersion high school and would one already need to speak Chinese?

I strongly oppose the Hua Mei charter school application for a host of reasons, especially because it will siphon money out of our already severely strapped local public school systems. I just e-mailed and telephoned Acting NJ Education Commissioner Chris Cerf to let him know how I feel and urge others to do the same--ASAP!

commissioner@doe.state.nj.us
(609) 292-4450, press 3 for the Charter School Office

Livingston and Millburn residents get yourselves ready for local school program cuts. Why? Because Hua Mei can still solicit to get up to 10% of total students from towns like Livingston and Millburn. Yes, our districts still need to pay them while our budget is limit to a cap.

That means about 30 students can be taken from our towns. Says 15 students per each town. Livingston and Millburn districts will need to pay out more than $150,000 a year in each town PLUS the transportation costs. The problem will be worst as Hua Mei starts to expand.

Does this sound like another program cuts for us next school year? Perhaps, changing to a half-day kindergarten now?? Any cuts look more permanent to me as you can see nothing from the last cuts has been restored yet.

Please sign the online petition I just started on Change.org opposing the Mandarin-immersion charter school and pass it along to others. Thanks!

http://www.change.org/petitions/acting-nj-education-commissioner-chris-cerf-reject-the-hua-mei-charter-school-application

Great petition, Marian. A second petition urging the Commissioner to reject Hua Mei's application can be found here: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/somsdcharterconcerns2/

Can people from other towns sign the petitions? We all need to fight this threat to our school dollars.

Susan--Absolutely, the more NJ residents who sign, the more powerful our voices become!

Marian
I'm just curious - would this school be funded by NJ Residents who don't live in SOMA? I"m confused as to why you are encouraging non-SOMA residents to sign this petition. I personally feel this is a great addition to the community. I have found that this issue seems to incur a lot of opposition particularly from people who only speak English. Bi or multi-lingual people see the importance of this kind of school. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where the Anglo-American way of doing things will always be the standard. The world is changing very rapidly and our students and children need to adapt to the trend towards globalization and greater cultural awareness of other countries and their cultures. If they don't they will not have an advantage and their standard of living will suffer greatly. This is not just about teaching a specific foreign language, it's about exposing our children to greater global cultural awareness and teaching them to think that the world is not always a 4X6 picture, it's really more like a prism. I hope this charter is approved and given a mandate for a few years to operate. Ultimately if the model doesn't work, it will close.

Nootrino - I hear what you are saying, though I don't agree with some of your assertions ("I have found that this issue seems to incur a lot of opposition particularly from people who only speak English.") If globalization is your concern, why not support programs that enable ALL students to learn languages - in other words, let these langugages be taught at public schools. Otherwise, these charter schools are only enabling a minority population of students at the expense of the majority of students. Does that support your perspective of a rapidly changing global world where children need to adapt? In my opinion, it does not. Just because people oppose charter schools does not mean they oppose enabling students to have a more global perspective; that argument just does not fly.

nootrino-My family is bi-racial and my husband was born in Hong Kong and I do not see this charter school as a great addition to the community. Teaching a mandarin immersion program to a few dozen students all the while draining the coffers to the tune of 600,000 our public schools that have a mandate to educate thousands. This was not the idea of how charter schools were supposed to work. They were supposed to be laboratories of new practices in districts that were failing to educate students appropriately. What kind of greater global cultural awareness is being gained by a small school that will most likely be less culturally diverse then the districts it draws from. We will no doubt have more cultural diversity at our ESL school Clinton then Hua Mei. I would rather see the founders of Hua Mei use their efforts to bring a mandarin program to our public schools like West Orange already has. I would join them in this effort. The model of this particular charter school has a lot of flaws and I remind you to read Brian Osborne's letter to the DOE which does an excellent job of cataloging them. You say" ultimately if the model doesn't work it will close" as if that is no skin off our nose but all the while it remains open it drains funds from our public schools while we watch programs cut? All for what? A faddish niche program for couple of hundred of students? Let those interested in early chinese acquisition send their children to private schools.

The reality is that if this school takes off there will be hundreds of students enrolled. This is nothing to sneeze at. That's a sizable population and I will say this, even though it will ruffle some feathers, but the students who will be enrolled in this school will probably be the cream of the crop from an academic standpoint. Any kids (or parents for that matter who are pushing them) who have the motivation to learn the most difficult language on this planet should be applauded and encouraged as much as possible. Look folks, the bottom line is this: There are one billion Mandarin speakers on this planet, China will eclipse the US economically in the next few decades and will be the 1000 lb gorilla in the room. Your children (and grandchildren) will have an advantage if they are able to somehow tap into that economic base. If our children don't have the language skills to communicate with the Chinese or, more importantly, have the cultural awareness then other countries will fill that gap and benefit. This comparison is no different than say kids who live in non-English speaking countries who MUST learn English if they are to thrive in this global economy as English is the dominant language right now. But that is going to shift in the next few decades. Mandarin might achieve parity or even eclipse English.

I will add that those parents who are motivated enough to realize the importance of this skill will find a way to have their children learn it. The only ones left out will be, as usual, those who fall into the income ranges that can't afford the kind of tutoring or private schools where this specialized curriculum is offered. I guess reminds me of the saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face". Our neighbors in Millburn and Livingston don't need to have a charter school for Mandarin immersion, those zip codes have the personal funding to teach their kids any language they desire. So sad to see some small-minded people deny such a brilliant opportunity to others.

Nootrino--this brilliant opportunity you speak of will NOT be available for every student by a long shot. This boutique charter school will not be able to accomodate or provide any education services for students who have special needs--learning or otherwise. Especially since those parents who "fall into the income ranges who can't afford ... tutoring or private schools" also cannot afford any kind of private therapy services for their special needs students (be it speech therapy or behavioral therapy) and they are dependent on their local public schools to provide these costly services.

I've heard the argument about how Mandarin will be the new language of global economy and I don't think its true. Just like we all didn't need to learn Japanese 20 years ago to be sucessful in the business world today, the Mandarin argument is waaaay overstated. Also, most Chinese schools are now pushing English, so any Chinese busnesspeople your kids are likely to come by will very likely already be proficient in English.

Finally, let's talk about whether Hua Mei will offer before and afterschool program services for students who have 2 working parents--you know, the ones who have to work full time because they fall into that "income range" you mentioned. The absolute irony of your argument, IMHO, is that if Hua Mei opens, it will likely ONLY be an option to a small, high-income subgroup of our student population--NOT the kids whose parents cannot afford private-Mandarin lessons....

Marian

You seem very passionate and I'd say borderline "angry" at this proposition. I honestly don't get it. This is a great opportunity to arm the students of our towns with a world-class education and teach them a skill that very few other kids in this country have. If you are not interested in giving your children an advantage over others, that's your prerogative but I would like to have my children to have this opportunity available to them. As I stated before, if the headcounts aren't there the school will close eventually. Plus your comments regarding not being able to accomodate special needs kids are ridiculous; all public schools must follow federal mandates regarding providing adequate services to kids with special needs. If you know something we don't in that respect, by all means share it. It would just be a further example of your extreme thinking on this subject.

nootrino,

Please -- I'm not borderline "angry" -- I'm FURIOUS that we have to fight this boutique school AGAIN after it was soundly rejected by massive community and local government opposition in our communities earlier this year.

I'm furious because our public schools cannot afford to lose any more money--especially to a school that will serve a small niche group of students at the expense of thousands of other children.

I'm furious because charter schools were designed to help failing districts provide viable alternate educational opportunities. In our towns, this charter school would be doing the exact opposite by removing funds and ultimately degrading the quality of the education in the public school system.

I'm furious because I do not want MY tax dollars to be used to teach Mandarin to a handful of my neighbors children, to the detriment of my own children and many thousands of others.

And I'm not the only one. An online petition specifically opposing this charter school on Change.org has--in less than 2 days--collected over 350 signatures.

http://www.change.org/petitions/nj-education-commissioner-chris-cerf-reject-the-hua-mei-charter-school-application

And in less time that that, another petition on iPetitions has garnered almost 700:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/somsdcharterconcerns2/

Clearly I'm not the only one who's angry...Peace out!

nootrino- read Brian Osborne's letter to the DOE it outlines why it is likely that the services Marian is talking about will not be available in any meaningful way in Hua Mei. Parents needing those services will basically self-select out of the process and not apply. While our tax dollars disappear from the school budget and we continue to provide the expensive services we must by law. You said it yourself it will likely have the "cream of the crop". Hua Mei's application says it will eventually when all grades are added - serve 240 students out of a sending district that serves tens of thousands of students yet the money that will be lost from the budget of that sending district will be severely impacted because every student that leaves for the charter does not result in a lowering of expenses for the sending district.

We spend so much money on other frivolous programs, especially athletics, that really have no vocational value to our kids and their prospects for future employment (except that is for a dozen or so who benefit from athletic scholarships). Same applies for art programs etc. So where do we draw the line between what is vital and necessary and what is a "boutique" option. Who makes that decision? I personally would rather have my children learn Mandarin or Spanish and be fully fluent in order to give them an edge in school and the workplace rather than having them excel in volleyball or music. And I certainly am not going to go by the results of online petitions which includes anonymous voting and the ability of people to vote multiple times - there is nothing scientific about that. Perhaps the township should add this as a referendum item if some feel so threatened by a bunch of nine year-old non-Asians speaking Mandarin at the local pizzeria. Sheesh, honestly folks move on to a more substantial issue.

Marian

PS - this is NOT an issue you should be FURIOUS about. Honestly, there is a lot more going on in the world right now to reserve your indignation for than expanding educational choices for our children. What really is your concern is?

nootrino is clearly revealing him/herself to be one of the founders of Hua Mei, trying for another go around here. This is not an issue about educational choice. You have all the choices you want. If you want your kids to learn Mandarin you are free to pay for it yourself. There is no basis for siphoning public funds from affected school districts to pay for the wishes of a few. Otherwise, where would you draw the line? Should we also have a public Hebrew academy right next to the Mandarin school? What about a Japanese language school? Why not just disband the school districts altogether and let everyone open whatever fringe boutique school they want. You can't have too many options, right?

Nootrino - your cavalier attitude about such an important issue facing our community makes me honestly question your motives here. Perhaps you are one of the founders of this school? Additionally, your opinion that sports and other arts programs don't help children succeed later in life is just that - an opinion! There are so many benefits to children participating in sports that far outweigh the remote chance that they may play a sport professionally, it's almost laughable that you are using this argument in a serious way. However, to each their own, which is why no one is stopping you from enrolling your child in a private school that meets your families priorities. Public schools, and charter schools are included in this category, are intended to meet the educational needs of the majority, not the special interests of the minority.

Laurie/Hedley/Marian
I hate to blow your Mandarin conspiracy theory out of the water, but I am NOT one of the founders. In fact, I have never met any of the founders of this initiative, on the life of my children. Irregardless, you should not sink to the level of accusing people - whom you don't know - of having a personal interest in this issue therefore the online support. That is ridiculous, especially for you Laurie whom I understand is an editor of the Patch. Your groundless fingerpointing speaks poorly of your objectivity. I am just a parent who happens to have travelled widely, and who has lived and worked in many foreign countries. It is because of the latter that I appreciate the importance of a program like this. In fact, I don't really care that it's Mandarin, GIVE ME ANY IMMERSION SCHOOL. It it's Polish or Swahili so be it. The issue here is that American students are one-dimensional in the minds of many and are focused on too much fluff in the schools. Becoming fluent in a secondary language, no matter what it is, gives them a marketable skill for life in the growing international workplace and it also gives them a different perspective on what the rest of the world is like. I think you ladies are too narrow-minded on this issue. If you have concern for your children you would push something like this, at least the option exists for them whether they care to participate or not.

PS - those of you who think English will forever be the lingua france are deluding yourselves. In fact, my contacts in Europe now tell me there has been a tectonic shift for many European students to study German rather than English. This just reflects the changing pecking order of economic supremacy. The rest of the world will study the language that best gives them an advantage economically; don't necessarily assume that will always be English. You may find Spanish, German, and Mandarin might one day replace English or achieve equal status as lingua francas. I just have one question for all you detractors: please disclose your knowledge of foreign languages. I personally am fluent in three languages, none of which are Asian. It would give me some perspective for your vehement opposition if you could disclose same. Thank you

The issue at hand is NOT language immersion.
It boils down to this:
Language immersion is GOOD.
Language immersion via a charter school funded by taxpayers is BAD.

The charter founders would be welcomed with open arms if they fought for funding to bring any type of language immersion opportunities INTO the EXISTING public schools.

Having spent months debating the charter school issue on this site, I have come to the conclusion that there is no explaining one's opposition to the charter school founders/supporters. They simply refuse to address the financial issues. I have not heard a single charter school proponent be able to explain how a school district can realize cost savings to offset the money sent to a charter - because there is none. They just keep repeating their mantra - "the money follows the child" as if that will answer the question. My advice to concerned residents is to do what we did in Millburn-Short Hills - sign petitions, call your state representatives, speak out to your friends and neighbors, write letters and emails to Commissioner Cerf, and anything else you can think of. None of us are safe from this threat to our schools until the law is changed.

(cont.)
I for one wouldn't mind paying the extra costs per student that this charter school would generate; would that make you sleep better? I doubt it, because I'm of the opinion that the opponents of this charter school have a deeper issue here than just school cost increases. The more I speak to people about this issue, the more I sense there is a subconscious racism that is the underpin of the contra-argument. I doubt there would be as much harsh rhetoric about this issue if the charter school were say Hebrew or Italian or some African language that is more popular with the demographics of the host communities. I don't say this lightly because I hate to think that people think this way but I have been living in Northern NJ for too long not to realize how much ethnic politics come into play with jsut about every issue on the plate.

Nick

I am HOPING AND PRAYING that some Jewish groups in this area or African-American groups lobby for respective language schools. You will see what I mean then.

Deal with your inner racism and bigotry dude and dudettes...

Ciao

Talking about racism, how about the fact that the founders of Hua Mei have NEVER included a town with a majority of African-American residents and failing school districts as eligible to attend their boutique establishment. Like saaay...Irvington, Newark, East Orange or Orange???

This charter school application once again--on its face--appears to discriminate based on race and socio-economic status. The towns it proposes to serve (Maplewood, South Orange and West Orange) are contiguous to Irvington, Orange, East Orange and Newark. ALL of these urban districts are specifically encouraged to establish charter schools under the statute N.J.S.A. 18A:36A-3(b). All are District Factor Group A, urban, Abbott districts with high incidents of poverty and a large proportion of minority students. Why aren't their children eligible to attend Hua Mei--especially when many of them are closer to Maplewood than West Orange???

The founders of Hua Mei need to explain WHY the application does not include these high-poverty districts. Give us a straight answer about that and then let's talk about racism and discrimination.

Marian

Good question. Perhaps you should ask them this. I'm still trying to get an answer to my question to you about why you and others who are so passionate about this haven't asked for an impact study from the BOE andTC.

As far as communities like Irvington, Newark, etc. I think we will all agree that the Maplewood and South Orange systems are very generous to these communities in terms of the numbers of students who are in our system yet live in these towns and for which we receive zero $$$. I think we all know how it goes. If you don't email me privately and I'll tell you at least 5-6 students I personally know who attend our system but live elsewhere.

I'm all for the underdogs Marian, but I also would like what is best for my own children. As the saying goes, take care of your house first.

Nick

I am not saying everyone is a rascist. I am merely stating that some people need to take a hard look at why they are so passionate about this issue. As a Maplewood taxpayer I've seen the TC and BOE spend lots of money on the most stupidest things, like the 2.5 million astro turf and I forget all the other crazy things for the school syste. I didn't recall the level of vocal opposition to those boondoggles as I see with this initiative. I just sense that there is a deeper resentment going on here than what is on the surface of some of these arguments. The financial argument is really baseless; yes it will cost more but the increase will be nominal at best. It certainly doesn't justify the level of rhetoric we are seeing from some making it sound like this is some pork-barrel project whose costs will drain us financially. Let's not forget that at the end of the day this charter school will be providing a premium education for our kids (your kids too potentially) that they couldn't get elsewhere. And YES I am well aware of the fact that a lot of the most vocal opponents of this initiative were in fact parents who don't have their kids in the public schools so I can see how that factor is motivating some. Some people just don't want to see others get ahead. Sad. So tell me Nick, where do your kids attend school?

nootrino,

I personally (and others) have asked Jutta that question numerous times in a thread on West Orange Patch and she has not responded.

http://westorange.patch.com/articles/hua-mei-charter-school-makes-first-cut-in-latest-review

I will not ask the BOE or the TC for an unnecessary and wasteful "impact study" that would likely cost tens of thousands of dollars to find out what we already know--the vast majority of taxpaying citizens in Maplewood/SO OPPOSE the Hua Mei charter school.

I have no idea why you're bringing up the "Illegal Student" issue on a thread about a Mandarin-immersion charter school in Maplewood except that you sound very passionate and I'd say borderline "angry" about a specious and dare I say racist assumption that Maplewood/SO are being "generous" to "these communities" i.e, Newark, Irvington, Orange and East Orange.

Finally if you know of illegal students in the Maplewood/South Orange school, don't tell me--tell the school district ASAP. There is a "Residency Reporting Hotline" so that information concerning students believed ineligible to attend district schools can be anonymously reported. Please call 973-762-5600, ext. 1749 to anonymously report your information if you're that concerned about what's best for your children.

@ nootrino: wow, where to begin? To try and answer your questions in order: First, yes the Millburn Superintendent/BOE looked at the issue (it's not a Township Committee issue) and determined that charter schools would drain vital funding away from districts to serve a very small number of students. Second, the concern is not higher property taxes per se; the issue is how to spend the money we have in a fair way. There are caps on raising taxes, so that wasn't at the heart of the issue. Third, the assumption that everyone in Millburn-Short Hills can afford whatever they want for their kids privately is simply not true. Many people here make sacrifices to afford the taxes so their kids can have a first class education in the public schools and we guard those dollars carefully. Fourth, our public schools already offer world language education. (continued)

People who want to study Mandarin can take it in the High School. In a perfect world, it would be great to offer more intense language study in the lower grades, but we have lost considerable funding over the past few years and one of the casualties was world language in the elementary schools. Payouts to charter schools will only add to those budget woes. Finally, when your position is being threatened, there is no more reprehensible tactic than to throw charges of racism into the mix. Those of us who spoke out against the proposed charter schools would have done the same regardless of the focus. (continued)

In addition, there are many Chinese families here in MSH and in neighboring Livingston who were some of the most vocal critics of the proposed Mandarin immersion schools. The situation in Highland Park also refutes your claims. The founding of a Hebrew language charter school in that predominately Jewish area has created a great deal of opposition from many Jewish families. A civil debate is great, but accusations of racism detract from the facts and demean the participants.

Hi nootrino,

You seem so confident that there will be an overwhelming amount of applications to register their children. Do you really know what is the ratio of instructions that will be given in Chinese vs. English in their Kindergarten class?

Answer: If nothing has been significantly changed from the last time. They will teach 90% in Chinese and 10% in English.

Hmm, that will help our children to be globally competitive, right?

Marian

That's a sad copout, you really should ask the town officials if you are so concerned with this issue. I know I would. Honestly, what does it cost you. You show up at ameeting and ask the question. No brainer to me.

As for demographics, I don't know for sure but I would guess that South Orange may actually have more blacks than whites, if not more probably very close. Ditto for Maplewood. And really, in all honesty, how many kids from Irvington do you really think will be competing for spots at a Mandarin immersion school. Marian, honestly I appeal to your common sense.

I am throwing in the "Illegal STudent" issue as you call because it shows that most people in SOMA look the other way on this issue as it involves education. Only a completely heartless person would report these young children and deprive them os something better. Key operative words: something better. You seem to be concerned with the choices that kids in Irvington & Newark have yet you are going out of your way to deny motivated children in the district for which YOU PAY TAXES the opportunity to participate in an advanced language program. Go figure. Really makes sense to me.

And Marian, just for the record, are your kids in private schools or public schools. I really would like to know the answer to this question. Silence = private schools. Which again seems to be another pattern with all these rabid opponents.

If parents wish for their children to learn Mandarin, or any other language for that matter, then they should have their children take language classes, after school, paid for by the parents.

Our children take guitar and piano. Should I petition to have a music school, paid for by tax dollars, created so that other children, only wanting to take guitar and piano, can enroll?

As a family, we have often spoke about the possibility of all of us learning a second language. Whom should I submit the bill to in order for us to do this? That's basically what's happening here.

For the record, I have two kids---one child is currently enrolled at the (public) Tuscan Elementary School in Maplewood and another who will be starting kindergarten there next fall. How about you?

As for the demographics of South Orange, you're guess is waaay off. According to the latest U.S. Census of South Orange, the racial makeup of the township was 60.41% White, 31.30% African American, 0.09% Native American, 3.89% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 1.57% from other races, and 2.71% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 4.93% of the population.

Speaking of that. Why don't we have an INNOVATIVE Charter school on Piano that would offer piano instructions as part of the school so I don't need to pay for Piano lessons any more. I'm sure a lot of people will be interested. Oh wait, make another Charter school on dance. My other child is really in to it now... And the list goes on.

I am seriously considering applying for a "KNITTING AND SEWING-Immersion" Charter School with the DOE next year because the global economy is collapsing and I feel that my children MUST know how to make their own clothing in the future to survive.

If your kitting and sewing immersion uses the same schedule that Hua Mei uses to teach Chinese language, your kids will end up kitting and sewing 90% of the school hours. That might be exactly what you want!

Thirty Four
Knitting and sewing are NOT global skills. Some languages, such as English, Spanish, Mandarin, German, French, etc are considered hard-core skills that business professionals and other professionals need to master if they are to thrive in the global economy. I think your attempt to be cute just exposes the fact that this discussion is outside your frequency level.
I'm all for specialized schools at an early age though, be it Mandarin or Spanish or Art or Dance. If this specialized training will give kids a head start in their careers or talents, then what is wrong with that. People in super-rich communities just pay for tutors to promote the talent; the charter model has the same goal but the cost is distributed more widely. But why do some feel that some programs are so outside the scope or interest of these parents and kids that they have to fight them tooth and bone. It's this kind of thinking that I don't quite understand. Where does this intense opposition come from, when all indications are that the costs will only increase marginally

Marian,
Oh yeah the Tuscan school. Got it. A microcosm of the demographic diversity that is Maplewood. NOT. And you have the nerve to bring Irvington and Newark into this discussion. Oy...

I wonder why people hide their identity when conversing on line.....

For the record, I have two kids in CHS. Using the RACE and RELIGION card does not deserve a response.

No one can 100% accurately predict the language of choice in the 2020 global economy. However, one can 100% accurately predict that the 2012 SOMSD will have to make budget cuts when the balance sheet is in the RED. It is that SIMPLE.

And no one could know whether their children would win the lottery to go to the charter. But they would know with 100% certainty that the regular public schools would deteriorate due to cutbacks to pay for the charter.

I am still baffled by the assumption that Mandarin language skills will benefit the majority of American students. Most will live and work in the US without ever needing Mandarin. For those that do, they can study it at their own expense and by their own choice. A public education system should meet the needs of the majority. Jutta Gassner-Snyder keeps talking about choice. Teaching only Mandarin isn't offering choice. And having our tax dollars allocated to this "school" without any say is definitely not choice either.

Nootrino still does not answer that why it is better to teach Chinese at 90% of the school hours at the kindergarten level would help acquire hard-core skills for business.

A parent attested in a board meeting that his daughter (with no prior Chinese background) who took classes in Chinese language track in her high school (public school) until she passed at the AP level and continued in her collage and now she lives and works in Shanghai with perfect Chinese fluency.

Why would teaching Chinese as much as 90% of instruction hours at such the young age (okay, parents' pick) would result to be a better outcome than having the children to choose their own path of inspiration to learn the world language of their choice in existing programs in the public schools so that they pursue the language study at the college level for the skills they really need professionally?

Thirty Four
Again, you are showing that this topic is outside your frequency level. (I'm being generous). Here's the scoop: the magic number for language learning is 12. Speak to linguists, google it, etc. Up to this age, kids absorb and learn languages like sponges. One can pick up a completely foreign language and achieve working fluency within a year. Happens all the time with non-speaking immigrants who enter our school systems. Beyond this age (possibly due to hormones or who knows what) learning languages becomes more difficult and achieving fluency declines almost linearly with advancing age. Point I'm trying to make: the sooner children are exposed to languages the quicker and easier they are able to acquire fluency. It is no accident that these immersion programs begin at such a young age and instruction is almost 100% in target language. Speak to your neighbors or co-workers (professional ones that is) who hail from foreign countries and who probably were in English immersion schools there and they will explain to you how this works.

Susan1
I was recently in an Eastern European country and I noticed in the capital city I was in there was only ONE local who spoke basic Mandarin and worked in the tourist industry. Needless to say, the Chinese have now started traveling as they get wealther. Chinese middle class is expected to reach 500 million in the coming decade. My point is, this person was making money hand over fist over her peers. Her ability to converse with the Chinese tourists, even though it was rudimentary, gave her an advantage over all the other tour guides. This is just one example of how knowing language skills, even basic, gives one an advantage. Now multiply that by all the countires in this world and all the industries and a nation that is now starting to flex its economic muscles globally. Keep in mind: China has more people than the US, Canada, the EU, Russia combined and probably a few hundred million to spare. There is no denying the impact to the global economy that this "horde" of consumers and businesspeople will have.

Marian
I have 3 children. One is not school age yet. The other two started out in Maplewood public schools but are now in private schools. We wanted our children to have a classical education and sadly didn't feel the Maplewood schools could satisfy that need. Additionally all this de-leveling crap is insanity in my book and will be another impetus for bright kids to flee the public schools. I think more and more parents who feel the public schools don't offer the rigor and quality that we like will pull their kids out of the systems or move to communities whose school systems are more conducive to our needs. Also, my older children each speak four languages, including three official UN languages and they are barely teenagers. This gives them an unprecedented advantage in the workplace in my opinion, both here in the US and also in one of the dozens of countries where they speak the language. I'm signing out of this discussion, it's gotten way too personal for my taste. I hope this charter school passes and gives students in our area an option they otherwise couldn't possibly afford. Over and out

Reminds me of the arguments back in the 1980s about how learning Japanese would be a key asset to compete in the 21st century economy. (Something about Japan being one of the fastest growing economies poised to become a global powerhouse....) And, yes, there were Japanese-immersion charter schools opened up in some suburbs back then too...maybe some of kids who went there were able to lead some Japanese tour groups in Europe too.

Marian, forget trying to discuss anything with these charter school people. You notice they STILL haven't answered the basic questions about financing. Keep fighting and also contact Save Our Schools nj to join with others who share your views.

I hear you, Susan--my energies are definitely better spent in other places...Just wanted to let you know that we are planning a big rally in Maplewood opposing the Hua Mei school--AGAIN--sometime in early January. I will post more details here and on MaplewoodOnline when they become available.

Needless to say, we invite all of our Millburn/Short Hills and Livingston neighbors to join us as this boutique charter school could very well be drawing students and funding from your districts as well. Thanks for all your support!

Pease OUT!

Hua Mei is a monster!!!

File under mass hysteria syndrome.

Marion: one more factoid for u

China = Japan multiplied by 10

Your naïveté is astounding

Please post the link when that becomes available. I have many documents on the reasons why the Two Way Immersion model that Charter people are so fond of will not work for Hue Mei. Agreed that talking in this forum is useless as one proponent can speak the same point again and again without looking at other factors. I will supply the documents to you. This is in addition to the financial and other aspects of the negative impacts. If you have email or URL, let me know.

Thirty Four--please forward your info to Acting Education Commissioner Chris Cerf ASAP. Cerf will be making he final call on Hua Mei's second application sometime in Mid-January so time is critical

commissioner@doe.state.nj.us

Please also forward it to Gov. Chris Christie (Cerf's boss) using this link:
http://www.nj.gov/governor/contact/

Thank so much your support!

Don't keep responding to noo's argument's about Mandarin. It's not about Mandarin. It's about money. Don't let the charter people "take you down the garden path" with their points of argument. Don't let them define the debate. WE have to define the debate. It's about the financing.

Marian, In your rally, get all legislators involved too. Also get Republican donors on your side. That was how Livingston and Millburn did it. I think when politicians see some political backslashes, they will try to avoid that.

Nick

You don't see the irony in your example. Yes, I'm aware of the corporate IT departments in the US that have 95% foreigners and few "token" Americans for appearances. Just doesn't look good to have 100% foreigners. Programming is what is called today a "low-entry" skill; that means anyone can do it anywhere and language skills are irrelevant. So your co-workers can do their job anywhere, not just in the US. The fact they are domiciled here requires English immersion - actually it doesn't really but if their American project managers are to have a chance communicating with them then they must have the ability to reciprocate. The tour guide example was but one. My point was that multinational corps want workers who are multi-lingual, even if the fluency is not 100%. Anyways, my argument is falling on deaf ears, I think you're smart enough to appreciate my argument but as I see with most of these anti-charter school people there are probably other factors going on here and financing is just a scapegoat. Lord knows in SOMA the residents take any funding initiative without even a burp so can't imagine why this is such a big deal. Even the chicken ordinance has less vocal opposition it seems despite the new funding that will be required to regulate and enforce the ordinances associated with that crazy initiative. Yet, I defer. If this is what others want in town, so be it. I am not going to stand in their way and fight tooth and bone because I don't like it.

Different attitude in this town:

My understanding is that a kindergarten program for 80+ students cost a total of 15K, most of that was for first-time curriculum planning...

http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/articles/capo-to-offer-countys-first-chinese-language-program

Quote from story:

Trustee Anna Bryson said she traveled to China with her husband, Bill Evers, when he was assistant secretary of education in 2007 to 2009. They visited the top-performing elementary, middle and high schools in Beijing.

"The competition is palpable, she said, adding that it is a matter of national security, the advancement of education and “international goodwill” that there are Americans fluent in Chinese."

Ugh- Did you actually read the article? The school in question in the above patch article is NOT a charter school. It was a program added to a county wide school system. The district itself developed and voted on implementing it. Good for them. With the way charter schools work right now even if the district (s) affected do not want the school all it takes is one vote from Christopher Cerf to approve. Bills are now in the state legislature seeking to change that .
It is not the fact that it is a mandarin immersion school but rather the funding mechanisms as a charter school which make Hua Mei a bad choice for SOMA and West Orange.

Nick
Education is the ONLY CHANCE OUR CHILDREN HAVE if they are to compete and succeed in the new global economy. There is no penny-pinching there. As a parent I would rather go hungry than to deny my children the best educational opportunities available to them.
And yes, you are probably a "token" hire if you're American and in IT. It's commonly understood today. No need to rub it in anyone's face. In fact, I have worked in orgs where we've been told we "need more Americans" in the IT department. Please don't go there, that's old news and another thread in itself.

That's madame to you sir.

Nootrino, clearly you have your facts wrong - I am not an editor for Patch, merely a contributing writer. Additionally, I am a parent of two students in the Maplewood/South Orange school district and know first hand the impact budget cuts have had on schools. And for what it is worth, I think it is safe to say that most people living in this community are welll-traveled, you are not unique in that regard; your self-congratulatory attitude about this fact does make you quite unique, however. Am I throwing stones? Sure, I am, however how could one not when you are basically calling anyone who opposes this charter school a racist, unworldy, ill-informed person. So who exactly started accusing anyone of anything? Oh, and for the record, I am also a member of the Jewish faith who would not support a Hebrew immersion school in our district. You said "I am HOPING AND PRAYING that some Jewish groups in this area or African-American groups lobby for respective language schools. You will see what I mean then. Deal with your inner racism and bigotry dude and dudettes... "

Hmm, seems to me assuming all members of a particular minority religion or ethnic group feel the same on a particular topic is a fairly racist position.

Knowing other languages won't be as necessary in 20 years. There will be translation technologies that will quickly provide what most business people or travelers will need.

If there is any charter school, it should be somehow focused on teaching kids about technology. Immersion Mandarin, or any language, is not a good use of educational resources. FYI, I speak 3 languages (and another decently) and wasn't born in this country)

Once again, it boils down to this:
Mandarin immersion = good idea
Charter school for Mandarin immersion = bad idea

Urgghh.. Bloody cookie-cutter whitebread Neanderthals trying to stop progress in this town and rob our kids of 21st century skills. And SOMA is supposedly two towns on the cutting edge. NOT

Nick: please stop sending me hostile and threatening messages to my private inbox. I don't need to disclose my identity to you. There is nothing in the terms and conditions of this site that states users need to state their real names. In fact, I think it's kind of stupid for anyone to publicly use their real names on public message boards. Back off or I will ask the moderator to suspend you.

The debate about content is robust and interesting...but....this is really a debate about funding...how to allocate scarce public dollars that are needed for elementary school education...

on one side of the issue we have the elites who argue that a select group of forward thinking parents should be able to custom-tailor niche education for their particular child....funded by John Q. Public....on the other side of the issue are populists (like me) who say....argue all you want for Mandarin eduaction....but if the majority of taxpayers in your community disagree with you...and you can't get support at your local school board...then stand down and respect the will of democracy...

Mandarin education is not a human right, it doesn't even come close to the standard one would call "the tyranny of the majority". Either we live in a democracy or we don't...so....while you might be convinced that Mandarin is The Way Forward....your challenge might seem to be to convince everyone else...that is how democracy is supposed to work...

I'm sorry but I had to respond to a false statement that nootrino posted on the orher Patch site that there are "FIERCE opposition from a small group".

http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/articles/capo-to-offer-countys-first-chinese-language-program

If judging only by this forum. You can see which group is smaller, the proponents or the opponents. The real deal is to go out and listen to people opinions with honesty. You will hear and should be accepted that the proponents are a very small minority.

Nootrino, I do not what world you live in or what your personal agenda is! But it is clear that in pursuit of your personal goal you are prepared to make all kinds of unfounded assertions. " the students who will be enrolled in this school will probably be the cream of the crop from an academic standpoint", and "hundreds of kids will be enrolled" etc. etc. Where do you come up with these statements from and based on what? If the real reason for a Mandarin immersion program is that China has grown economically, why push only Mandarin, why not Cantonese, why not Foochow, and others. The fact is that even if China is to become the top economy in the world in a few decades, it will not be millions of Americans who will move to or visit China to do business. And those Americans who do, can learn Chinese languages themselves. The rest of the society does not need to pay for them. In any case how do you decide that your little one will choose a profession where learning Mandarin is going to be a requirement?

And if these people want to learn the language because they are of Chinese origin then a fair question to ask is why not move back and have your children learn all of the culture and language that you are clamoring for?

Either way, it does not seem to make sense to suck money out of and hurt a public school system that seems to be running so well! This too at a time when Millburn Schools just cut off the Spanish language program (which is a lot more relevant to us)....

Continued...

This is an extreme case of selfishness where some people want the rest of the society to pay for their personal wishes. I wonder some of these people are the same ones that want to increase taxes on everyone else so some of their personal pet causes/personal wants can be funded. If you are so determined to teach your child Chinese, why not hire a tutor yourself or take them to China and have a proper "immersion" experience?

+1 Lunar!

nootrino is the perfect example of a parent who wishes to have their child learn a foreign language but wants someone else to pay for it.

It's simply unfair to ask the people of SO-MW to pay for someone else's child to attend a specialized school. As taxpayers, we pay for many things we don't agree with and often have little say about it. Now we have a say and the majority shouts "NO!" to this proposed school.

Financially, as so eloquently stated in other posts, we cannot sustain this school. We are strapped. Why is it feasible to take away even more money from local schools to develop a school that is deemed a "specialty" school? This school will not benefit all of our children, just a select few. Also, what is the point of learning this language if not fortified at home? Do we know how many parents who are interested in this school are actually Mandarin speakers themselves? Language must be practiced in order to be mastered. If these children come from non-Mandarin speakers, the likelihood of retaining what is taught will be extremely low. So what's the point in taking it?

Simply said, this isn't a good fit.

Language immersion is an excellent idea -- but the cost is too high to do it with the charter school model. Do it a different way, where it does not drain dollars from public school districts.